E-Lok Bedienung

[stevej]

G'day, Ich muss mich entschuldigen, meine Deutsche sprache nicht sehr gut ist. I have some questions about the operation of DB and OeBB electric locomotives. I have viewed a number of video clips featuring DB and OeBB E lok fuehrerstandsmitfahrten. The three classes of NSW E loks had manual motor combination selection; series; series-parallel; parallel. This does not appear to be the situation with DB or OeBB E loks. Die tfz baureihe 110 has 28 fahrstufen. I realize that a Bo-Bo would not possess Series-Parallel, but am wondering if Parallel motor combination occurs at a specific power notch after attaining the necessary speed. The suburban emu trains in Sydney NSW have four power notches; notch 1 starting series; notch 2 full field series; notch 3 parallel; notch 4 weakfields. The early emu sets had resistance (widerstand), the later classes having chopper gate (thyristor) control. Whereas, all three of the NSW E lok classes had resistance. Once having notched out of resistance and attaining the necessary speed, depending upon train load and gradient, series-parallel motor combination could be selected. Parallel motor combination was only possible with a light train load and maximum of two locomotives in multiple unit. The NSW 1500 vDC system will trip out when below 1050 vDC and excess of 5000 Amps due to locomotive demand. I am also curious about DB and OeBB E bremse. Steve.

[Didy]

Hello to NSW and welcome!

The main difference is: We have a 15kV AC system. There is a transformer with several taps, one tap per Fahrstufe. The Schaltwerk simply selects the tap - either on the high voltage (Oberspannung) side of the transformer, or on the low voltage (Unterspannung) side. Class 110 has a high voltage Schaltwerk (but there are different Schaltwerk types throughout the 110 series).

A few links, maybe google translate will help you:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_E_10
http://www.ig-einheitsloks.de/?s=br110
http://www.baureihe110.de/T_Schaltwerk.htm

What I know from some trams running on 600/750V DC: The master controller also has a number of Fahrstufen, where the lower half is series, and the upper half is parallel.

Best regards,
Didi

[Georg A.]

AFAIR someone posted a electrical schematic (sort of...) for the BR110 in this forum a while ago... But I have no clue how to find it

[stevej]

Vielen Dank Didi und Georg A, den Sie meine frage beantwortete haben. I have gone to the web links and will read the information. I do possess a German Railway terminology translation that may help me to understand. In some video clips, I have seen that die E lok hauptschalter must be switched out when passing under certain oberleitung air gaps and section insulators, fahrleitungssignal El1. Here, we did not need to do that. But, with only a single stromabnehmer raised per lok, the no volt relay could trip out. Outside of the Sydney metropolitan region, it was permissible to have both pantographs raised, up to a maximum of 6 for multiple unit traction. With both pans raised, that bridged the gap and avoided the relay fault. Steve.

[chris232]

The reason therefore can be i.e. unsynchronised frequency of power supply. Therefore, you have to lower the collector if you have more than one in use on one unit or if you've got a certain space between them on several units, to exclude short-circuits. At most of those insulators where only the tension is different or those who are only used to seperate supply areas, you can pass at full throttle. Those are mostly unmarked or there's only the sign "Elektrische Streckentrennung" (which you can find at the very back of the signal code).

If you need anything else, don't hesitate to ask. I am trained on Class 110/140 and 151, Martin H. can help with class 111 (which works basically similar) and I can think of some more who are just into electrics.

[stevej]

Danke Chris, I do possess a karte which displays the various maximum amperages available on various DB strecken, and did wonder if that was a reason for the hauptschalter being switched out when passing under section insulators. Here, there can be a voltage difference at section insulators, so to prevent arcing, where possible, you would return the master controller to off. But, when climbing a steep grade (steigung), you had to continue to power. In regard to DB E bremse, from what I have read, this appears to be resistance (widerstand). Here, the three baureihe of E lok had regenerative brake, the current generated being put into the overhead. Here there was maximum motor amps for both powering and for brake.
Steve.

[stevej]

G'day noch einmal, I have noticed that most DB loks only possess the two pipe air system; Hauptluftleitung und Haupluftbehaelter Leitung. This would indicate that when working mit doppel traktion, only the front lok zusatzbremse would apply when utilized. Here in NSW we have the four pipe system, which includes the independent application and release, plus quick release pipes. When I worked in Tasmania state, the system employed there is the three pipe type, which includes the independent equalizing pipe. The three pipe system is not as quick to operate, but still permits application and release of the locomotive independent brake for multiple unit operation. Plus, to permit release of the locomotive brake when making a train brake (druckluftbremse) application to prevent coupler slack roll in. Here, except for steep grades (steigung und gefaelle), and heavy train loads, the locomotive brakes will hold a train stationary. Without the application of multiple unit zusatzbremse, I presume that DB zuege must stand with the train brake applied. Steve.

[chris232]

Hi again! First of all, there are several kinds of multiple unit controls. Until the 80s, the KDS/KWS (conventional multiple unit / push-pull train control) was used, with a 36-pole analog cable. This could therefore only transmit a small range of commands, the loco brake wasn't one of them. But since these had block brakes, they could often hold a train stationary alone. With the introduction of class 120, a new system ZDS (time division multiplex multiple unit control) was introduced, which works on a semi-digital basis on the IS- or UIC-cable which also transmits commands to the passenger cars. ZMS and ZWS (which are almost the same, with ZMS being able to transmit more commands and control three locos at once and ZWS being the one for push-pull trains) followed. In Austria and few engines in Germany, WTB (wire train bus) can control almost everything on I think up to 16 units, basically allowing to operate a 40 year old diesel engine and a brand new electric one together.
Almost all of these more recent systems allow to release the brakes when the train brake is applied. With ZMS, some series can also control the locomotive brake of the other unit(s) - with WTB, everyone of them can. Still, usually the brakes of the first unit will be enough to hold the train, although you need twice as much disc brakes to keep up with block brakes. At Geislingen West with 1.5% gradient, a single engine with block brakes can easily hold 1400 tons with 2 bar brake pressure. With disc brakes at a maximum of 4.5 bar, a 1200t train won't stay stationary.

I forgot to answer your last post: At those insulators with a difference only in tension, you mostly don't have to do anything at all, as long as you go fast enough. Only at those marked with the sign I mentioned, you mustn't come to a standstill with the collector raised, and you should go over 20 kph.
The electric brakes of class 110 and 139 work with resistors, class 140 doesn't have any. Regenerative brakes were first introduced in the 80s, when class 120 was the first to use three-phase alternating current in serial production. Afterwards, only multi-system (or diesel-electric) engines were equipped with resistors for operation in DC systems.

[stevej]

G'day Chris, thankyou, you are helping me to understand DB lok operation. Regenerative brake using three phase alternating current, I had not considered that system. The E loks used in Queensland state have dynamic (resistance) E bremse. The fahrdraht there being 25kVA. Here in NSW, today there are some motive power baureihe with AC fahrmotor. I only have experience with DC traction motors. As to scheibenbremse, I have experience only with one emu suburban train (S bahn) which has disc brakes. The majority of locomotives and rollingstock that I have experience with have klotzbremse. I find it interesting that eine lok mit scheibenbremse cannot hold a train stationary where one with klotzbremse would. Though, here the recent motive power only possess one brake block per wheel. Previously, locomotives had two brake blocks per wheel. I do know that a locomotive possessing only one brake block per wheel will not hold the same tonnage train stationary as will a locomotive with two brake blocks per wheel. It was decided to utilize one brake block per wheel to prevent skidded (gerutscht) wheels as was the occasional problem with two blocks per wheel system. EP brake system has been utilized here on emu and dmu personenzuege for many years. There is now ECP (electrically controlled pneumatic) system utilized on some unit coal and ore trains. This is a more modern version of EP for gueterzuege. I have experience with EP, but not ECP system. The normal diesel lok steuerung kabel here has 27 pins. The 85 / 86 class E lok cable had 42 pins. The br 46 E lok had three cables. The EP cable is a 4 wire with 7 step combination of brake application providing a maximum of 230 kpa (2.3 bar) brake cyclinder pressure. Bremszylinderdruck can be increased by the use of emergency. Lok voll bremszylinderdruck is normally 325 kpa. I have no knowledge of the ECP cable. Except for the small number of modern diesel loks with ECP ability, and the triebkopf for the diesel XPT train, other NSW motive power has no EP compatibility. HL for early NSW S bahn emu sets was 425 kpa (4.25 bar), generally 5 bar for all other NSW trains. However, when descending the 32 km 1 in 33 (33 %o) gefaelle on the Blue Mountains, we could raise brake pipe pressure to 600 kpa (6 bar). This had to be returned to 500 kpa at the end of the grade. Modern diesel motive power here with 30CDW brake valve (fuehrerventil) do not permit adjustment of the brake pipe pressure (HL). The brake pipe pressure used in Tasmania is 550 kpa. Steve.

[stevej]

I also have a question about Indusi magnets in the border regions of Switzerland. I am curious about DB loks operating on SBB trackage. SBB signale and indusi magnets appear to be in standort links, however indusi magnets are also provided in standort rechts. So, where bi-directional (gegengleis) signale exist, the actual SBB magnets for opposite fahrtrichtung halt signale would be encountered by DB loks. I presume that to prevent any accidental zwangsbremsung occurring, those magnets would be deactivated. Here within the Sydney metropolitan region, there is the mechanical Train Stop system utilized. At a halt signal, the contact lever will raise. This will make contact with the pendulum lever on the front drehgestell of an emu or dmu train if it were to pass that halt signal and cause an emergency brake application.
This system is not applied to locomotives. Bi-directional signals must have the train stop lever lowered at halt indications for the direction opposing train travel. This is to prevent that lever making contact with the rear car pendulum lever. To enable quick turn-around at terminal stations, both end car's pendulum lever will remain engaged. Intermediate car pendulum levers must be locked up out of operation. Steve.

[Didy]

Regenerative brake using three phase alternating current, I had not considered that system.

To avoid misunderstantings: The three phase AC only refers to the traction motor. The catenary stays single phase 15kV 16,7Hz AC.
In general, practically all of todays locomotives, EMUs and trams usually have an three phase AC traction motor and a power converter. The power converter can transform power in both directions, this makes regenerative braking easy.

The EP cable is a 4 wire

Is it the UIC EP cable? http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektropneuma..._2012_08_27.JPG

I presume that to prevent any accidental zwangsbremsung occurring, those magnets would be deactivated.

To be honest, I don't know how it is handled and if the Integra Signum track equipment could influence the Indusi loco system.

But to clarify: The swiss Integra Signum system is using static magnetic fields, whereas the german Indusi/PZB utilises frequencies of 500Hz, 1000Hz and 2000Hz. So for the german system, "magnet" is not physically correct

Integra Signum has two "magnets" in the track, a receiver in the middle and a transmitter on the left. Those are only passive. The loco has a (either permanent or electromagnetic) magnet in the middle, and a receiver on the left.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integra-Signu...gnum_Schema.PNG

The Indusi system on the loco transmits 500Hz, 1000Hz and 2000Hz. The track side "magnets" are resonant circuits tuned to one of these frequencies, so the loco transmitter will detect the additional load when passing an active trackside "magnet".
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indusi#/media...dusi_Schema.PNG

[stevej]

G'day Didy, thankyou for the explanations plus web links. I was not aware that a different system to the DB Indusi was employed in Switzerland. Here today in NSW, there is testing being conducted for appraisal of the ATC (ETCS) system. I have only seen limited information, but from a cab photo, the display is similar to that used with LZB / ETCS. Ericsson ATP system was tested here during the early 1990s, but deemed too expensive. E lok 8650 continued to possess the Ericsson equipment after the tests were concluded and track equipment removed. I did discover one day that the default speed of 25 km/h was imposed when the system was activated and could not register with the track balise equipment. There have been a number of EP hersteller systems utilized here in NSW; I can think of Westcode, Davies Metcalfe, Knorr Bremse. I do not know about UIC compatibility, but would presume that the current Knorr EP system utilized would be UIC compliant. I only have experience with Westcode EP system. The earlier Sydney emu trains only had air brake including EP. The first system utilized was S.E.M being the indirect type. This was followed by the direct EP system. Subsequent emu br have blended EP and regenerative brake system. When airconditioning was implemented, motor alternator sets were provided for the 415 vAC supply, however traction remained via resistance banks. The next improvement being the use of thyristor chopper gate control, introduced in 1986. The br T (Tangara) emu implemented scheibenbremse and also Scharfenberg coupling system. The recent br A (Waratah) emu has the Knorr bremse system and AC fahrmotor. Steve.

[146225]

I also have a question about Indusi magnets in the border regions of Switzerland. I am curious about DB loks operating on SBB trackage.

Just asides from the technical details which other users are far better in explaining, I just might add from an operational point of view that in the border region it is normal to have a mixed operating possibility. So for example any german locomotive or railcar may reach the station of Basel SBB (the central swiss railway station of the city) with a passenger service without any problems or also swiss freight trains may continue to the german yard of Weil am Rhein without problems. The same is true for the line between Singen (Germany) and Schaffhausen (Switzerland), where the signalling system and the geometry of the catenary wires are designed for use by both german and swiss-based rolling stock. Schaffhausen to Erzingen (Germany) is more of the same, although here the electric supply ends on the swiss/german border town of Erzingen - to go further, you need a diesel engine. This was built to supply swiss local services in the region, to take the electric services further on will need some additional years of planning, discussions and of course money.

Locomotives and railcars operating on both systems - for example certain parts of the freight locomotives of german class 185 / swiss classes 482 (SBB) or 485 (BLS) going all the way through Switzerland and/or Germany are ever equipped for both systems. Same counts for the high-speed-ICE-passenger-trains of class 401, were certain units are outfitted for regular services to swiss destinations as Zurich or Interlaken.

[stevej]

G'day nummer 146225, danke, it is indeed a remarkable combination of different system infrastructure to permit the through-running of DB, OeBB, SBB und SNCF trains. I could imagine the possibility of failures (stoerungen) when there are numerous systems required on motive power. Therefore, the maintenance regime must be rigorous. Here in Australia, the major barrier to the through running of trains was the gauge difference. Normalspur reached Melbourne city Victoria in 1962 and eventually Perth city Western Australia in 1970. However, signalling and safeworking practice remains individual to the various states. The through-running of motive power being restricted until the unions agreed and the crews became qualified. When train radio systems had been implemented here, this did require some adaptation of motive power, the various radio systems being different. However, on the normalspur strecken there is no signal based interactive system other than the manual train stop system employed within the Sydney and Melbourne metropolitan regions. Freight locomotives not being required to have such equipment. I remember with amusement, the panic in Sydney about the approach of the 2000 Olympic games. It was feared that the Sydney suburban rail system would not cope. Management had proposed requesting Melbourne MET suburban drivers be seconded to Sydney Cityrail for the duration of the games. I had been sent to Sydney to represent the freight rail operation, along with a driver from Countrylink (fernzuege NSW) and a Cityrail (S bahn) driver to review the NSW safeworking alterations being proposed. We had to veto this proposal to borrow MET drivers due to the difference in signal systems. Within the Sydney double light signal region, Green over Red indicates CAUTION (next signal is at HALT). Whereas, the Melbourne signal system is US speed based and Green over Red indicates Full Clear (Frei). Steve.